celtichackr
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Hacker, geek, all around technoaddict. Amateur Scientist (well except for those pesky degrees).
Posts: 51
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Authored by celtichackr on Sept 13, 2013 16:49:52 GMT
Well here come the trolls. If PJ banned someone it was for good reason. Groklaw, is PJs site. She started the site. She wrote the first article. She paid the bills. She wrote most of the articles. She organied and managed it. She did the hard work of keeping it going. It was hers to do with as she pleases.
If I get people to help be build a barn on my property, that barn doesn't become the property of the "community" that helped me build it. In many places a community gets together to do "barn buildings", where they all pitch in and help a person get a barn done in a day. In the end the barn still belongs to the person on whose land it resides. So just go away with your stupid twisting to your own ends, about how it became something greater, and because of that it was no longer hers. Bologna!
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Guy Fawkes
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Authored by Guy Fawkes on Sept 13, 2013 21:55:46 GMT
Well here come the trolls. If PJ banned someone it was for good reason. Groklaw, is PJs site. She started the site. She wrote the first article. She paid the bills. She wrote most of the articles. She organied and managed it. She did the hard work of keeping it going. It was hers to do with as she pleases. If I get people to help be build a barn on my property, that barn doesn't become the property of the "community" that helped me build it. In many places a community gets together to do "barn buildings", where they all pitch in and help a person get a barn done in a day. In the end the barn still belongs to the person on whose land it resides. So just go away with your stupid twisting to your own ends, about how it became something greater, and because of that it was no longer hers. Bologna! No, here come the people who are willing to speak without the threat of posts disappearing. What you have done is engage in an ad hominem attack. You attack the idea that PJ deleted posts for reasons other than rule violations by calling people who say it happened "trolls". All paradox was a retired lawyer. He wrote articles for Groklaw. Just Google the name. He asked people if he could quote their posts in a book. PJ banned him and deleted the post and every one he made afterwards because of that post asking if he could use peoples posts. PJ even deleted posts asking where AllParadox was for months afterwards. I watched over the years as posts from other posters disappeared . They didnt violate the rules, unless you count the unwritten rule that posters should not make PJ look bad or question some ideal she held.Your analogy of a barn is flawed because PJ herself called Groklaw a community. A community isn't personal property like a building. She knew it was more than a blog she started. Don't give me the "paid the bills" excuse either. Because her hosting was free and she collected money to cover expenses. Power corrupts, and in this case it cost the FOSS community a resource. Instead of giving Groklaw to the community and setting up community governance she locked the doors.
But then again I have come to expect this from you. Over the last couple of years you have been a firm defender of PJ. Just as AllParadox was at one time. Even after what she did by closing Groklaw you still defend her. Its time to stop drinking the Kool Aid.
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celtichackr
Veteran Member
Hacker, geek, all around technoaddict. Amateur Scientist (well except for those pesky degrees).
Posts: 51
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Authored by celtichackr on Sept 14, 2013 2:20:16 GMT
Guy,
I've been on Groklaw since the beginning. I remember All Paradox. I may be severely ADD and absent-minded, but I remember him. The problem with making accusations and saying you know this and you know that, is you may or may not have all the facts. Unless you've hacked into PJ and All Paradox's emails you don't know what transpired between them. You don't know whether All Paradox was pretending to be someone, and actually was someone else. You don't know whether he had only one account from one IP or several. Unless you're some kind of Internet God, you don't know if you know all there is to know or not.
Yes, PJ has called Groklaw a community many times and thanked us many times. She's admitted that she couldn't have done it without us. None of that changes the fact she started it with her time and her own money and it became a full-time job for her. Now she's stopped. She's left Groklaw up, she could have taken it all down. It's hers.
As to the unwritten rule about making her look bad or questioning some ideal of hers, you obviously haven't read all my posts. I don't drink cool-aid. But, I give her the benefit of the doubt. You can say he was banned because All Paradox asked the wrong question. But that may not have been all there was to it. Perhaps PJ kept some of it to herself. I don't know, and I'm not going to judge her. It's not my place to pass judgement on her. Are you so righteous, that you've never done anything wrong, or petty?
I don't see it the way you do. The FOSS community hasn't lost anything except PJ, she set up the model, released her articles to the community. You have every right to start your own blog and blog on the patent cases and SCO and bring the community to you. She doesn't feel comfortable doing it anymore. Go lead, or follow someone, but trolling around here being negative and picking on someone who isn't here to defend herself does nothing to further the community. So that which drains the energy of conversation is a troll. Hence I called it what it was trolling. At least learn about what you're speaking of. I'm not going to continue to feed trolls and troll supporting content. I have better things to do than argue stupid nonsense points that do nothing to further Groklaw, GroktheLaw or FOSS.
I'd like to say if you were truly FOSS spirited you'd understand this, but I've been in the FOSS community too long, and know there are lots of intentional and unintentional trolls in the community. you may not think of it as trolling, but it is. You of course won't agree, because well you're too close to it maybe. Or simply don't understand what a drain you and others spouting all the negativity are being, or any number of a thousand other reasons.
Yes, I defend PJ, because it's her site, and her rules, and her choice. Others stayed and contributed, because they chose to, and it became greater than it would have otherwise been. It's as simple as that. I don't have to agree with PJ or everything she's done to support her in doing what she chooses to do with her site. And if you ever choose to lead, rather than tear down, and create your own site and it draws a crowd of users, I'll support your right to do as you please with your site. Why? Simple. It's the right thing to do. I always try to do that which is right. Not because it's written in some religious text (before you go thinking this is some religious post), but because it's written in my moral code.
Celtic_hacker Pastafarian? Maybe. All Hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!
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Guy Fawkes
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Authored by Guy Fawkes on Sept 14, 2013 4:27:34 GMT
Guy, I've been on Groklaw since the beginning. I remember All Paradox. I may be severely ADD and absent-minded, but I remember him. The problem with making accusations and saying you know this and you know that, is you may or may not have all the facts. Unless you've hacked into PJ and All Paradox's emails you don't know what transpired between them. You don't know whether All Paradox was pretending to be someone, and actually was someone else. You don't know whether he had only one account from one IP or several. Unless you're some kind of Internet God, you don't know if you know all there is to know or not. Yes, PJ has called Groklaw a community many times and thanked us many times. She's admitted that she couldn't have done it without us. None of that changes the fact she started it with her time and her own money and it became a full-time job for her. Now she's stopped. She's left Groklaw up, she could have taken it all down. It's hers. As to the unwritten rule about making her look bad or questioning some ideal of hers, you obviously haven't read all my posts. I don't drink cool-aid. But, I give her the benefit of the doubt. You can say he was banned because All Paradox asked the wrong question. But that may not have been all there was to it. Perhaps PJ kept some of it to herself. I don't know, and I'm not going to judge her. It's not my place to pass judgement on her. Are you so righteous, that you've never done anything wrong, or petty? I don't see it the way you do. The FOSS community hasn't lost anything except PJ, she set up the model, released her articles to the community. You have every right to start your own blog and blog on the patent cases and SCO and bring the community to you. She doesn't feel comfortable doing it anymore. Go lead, or follow someone, but trolling around here being negative and picking on someone who isn't here to defend herself does nothing to further the community. So that which drains the energy of conversation is a troll. Hence I called it what it was trolling. At least learn about what you're speaking of. I'm not going to continue to feed trolls and troll supporting content. I have better things to do than argue stupid nonsense points that do nothing to further Groklaw, GroktheLaw or FOSS. I'd like to say if you were truly FOSS spirited you'd understand this, but I've been in the FOSS community too long, and know there are lots of intentional and unintentional trolls in the community. you may not think of it as trolling, but it is. You of course won't agree, because well you're too close to it maybe. Or simply don't understand what a drain you and others spouting all the negativity are being, or any number of a thousand other reasons. Yes, I defend PJ, because it's her site, and her rules, and her choice. Others stayed and contributed, because they chose to, and it became greater than it would have otherwise been. It's as simple as that. I don't have to agree with PJ or everything she's done to support her in doing what she chooses to do with her site. And if you ever choose to lead, rather than tear down, and create your own site and it draws a crowd of users, I'll support your right to do as you please with your site. Why? Simple. It's the right thing to do. I always try to do that which is right. Not because it's written in some religious text (before you go thinking this is some religious post), but because it's written in my moral code. Celtic_hacker Pastafarian? Maybe. All Hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster! She closed the site, she killed the community. The idea that it can be made again by someone else is just wrong. A community is like a person, it cant be cloned. You cant just open a site and expect to have the same impact and the same feel. It was sheer chance along with work and people that Groklaw succeeded and grew. Lots of sites discussed what SCO did, only Groklaw survived. I remember AllParadox being banned, I have read the posts and was on the site when the main one was deleted. One minute the post asking people if it was alright to use their comments was there. The next it wasn't. Why else delete that post if it were not the cause of the disagreement? after that all posts were deleted and people I knew complained that posts they had posted that even mentioned AllParadox were deleted. You appear to bend over backwards in defending PJ. At one point I probably would have myself. But a pattern developed over almost 9 years that could not be ignored. a lot of posts that didn't break the written rules were deleted You call people who disagree with you a troll. I call it healthy discussion. If people cant talk about whats happened in the past they are doomed to repeat problems and the paths that lead to the death of communities. If a troll is someone who disagrees with others then you must be one by your own definition. If you think causing heated debate is part of being a troll, well the use of the term is considered a flame in a lot of forums. Defend someone who deserves defending. Not someone who appears to have been looking for a way out for awhile now. Not someone who left Florian as the loudest voice now with no other voice to contradict him. Not someone who could have left the site to the community but didn't. A lot of popular FOSS communities survive past the founders leaving. Grokalw should have been given that chance IMHO. Believe what you want, I think it was just wrong what PJ did to the Groklaw community and I doubt anyone could make me feel otherwise.
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celtichackr
Veteran Member
Hacker, geek, all around technoaddict. Amateur Scientist (well except for those pesky degrees).
Posts: 51
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Authored by celtichackr on Sept 14, 2013 13:53:56 GMT
She closed the site, she killed the community. The idea that it can be made again by someone else is just wrong. A community is like a person, it cant be cloned. ... You call people who disagree with you a troll. I call it healthy discussion. If people cant talk about whats happened in the past they are doomed to repeat problems and the paths that lead to the death of communities. If a troll is someone who disagrees with others then you must be one by your own definition. If you think causing heated debate is part of being a troll, well the use of the term is considered a flame in a lot of forums. ... A lot of popular FOSS communities survive past the founders leaving. Grokalw should have been given that chance IMHO. Believe what you want, I think it was just wrong what PJ did to the Groklaw community and I doubt anyone could make me feel otherwise. Definition of the word Troll. In particular note, "a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments". But other parts of the definition are relevant also. Arguing over what PJ did in the past, and how bad a person she must be for what she has done is not a healthy discussion. It's at best "sour Grapes", go read some fables and learn. At worst it mean-spirited bullying in absentia. I'm sorry, until you learn what it means to be a troll, I simply won't discuss anything with you. Because it will never result in a healthy debate. I love to debate. Pick a topic worthy of debate and I'll debate you until: your fingers fall off responding to my responses, you bow down before me in humility to my God-like powers of debate, or you just get tired of debating me. But this thread is about "reproducing Groklaw comments", not "What a terrible post deleting, FOSS community letting-down, worthless hack PJ is" thread. I defend PJ, only because, I don't like Bullies with grudges, and you and the AC are acting just like every cowardly bully, I've ever known. So yes, I will bend over backwards defending her from bullies, But, I'm done with you and this "healthy discussion". I should have never fed you, but it's too late, except to delete the off-topic threads. Which if I had the power, I'd do. Live up to your moniker, Guy Fawkes was a man of honor above all things else. As far as your response, you say a community can't be cloned. Wow. So there's only one Linux distribution is there? Nobody cloned the X development? Your Jedi mind tricks won't work on me, Darth.
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Guy Fawkes
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Authored by Guy Fawkes on Sept 14, 2013 17:23:16 GMT
Then don't, don't keep posting like you are going to convince me that your right.
You have posted yet another faulty analogy. Linux distributions are not clones of each other. Neither is the community behind them. Most serve different purposes for different groups of people.
Those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
Sugarcoating what Groklaw was makes people forget what it really was. Those that do will be doomed to repeat the mistakes it made.
If anyone in this topic is a troll you are. Prove me wrong, walk away, and don't post more comments designed to inflame the discussion.
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stegu
Veteran Member
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Authored by stegu on Sept 16, 2013 8:05:55 GMT
Holding a grudge, much? Do you have any idea how much work it is to maintain a troll-infested site that allows anonymous posting? If you haven't done the legwork for anything like that, wading through hundreds of posts each day to sort out the constructive comments from the troll droppings, I advise you not to pass such strong judgment for any mistakes that were made in the heat of the moment. Yes, mistakes were made, I think we can all agree to that, and sometimes I suspect PJ just thought "I don't have time for this, screw it" and banned people that were just bad at communicating politely even though they had a point. Overall, I still think PJ did a heroic job with that site, with very good results. Look at the big picture. (Please. Really.)
PJ never called Groklaw a community. She repeatedly referred to it as "her place, her rules", and she welcomed a large group of people to come and visit. The people visiting were the Groklaw community, but the site itself, and the rights to do with it as she pleased, was always very clearly and rightfully hers. While I might not necessarily agree that it was the best choice to keep it that way (I haven't considered the alternatives, and I do not have enough information to form an opinion), it was her choice to make, and I respect that.
I don't have any inside information on what happend with AllParadox, but I do not see a pattern of such events over the history of Groklaw. I see single incidents, and I strongly suspect there might be a lot more to that than what we know.
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DodgeRules
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Authored by DodgeRules on Sept 16, 2013 13:31:27 GMT
I have to agree here. I had it happen to me. I had the audacity to make a couple of posts stating that Apple could have easily slanted their surveys back in the time of the Apple-Psystar court case. I said it is very easy to slant questions to get the answers you want and make your survey favor your side of things. For this she "deleted" my posts. She said that Apple couldn't do that and that I was just a Troll. For a while though I didn't know they were "deleted" until I viewed the website while logged out or as another user (created specifically for this reason of verifying what she was doing.) She didn't actually delete the posts in my case, but made them only appear for my account so I thought everyone could see them. Once I called her out on it using an Anonymous post, she deleted my account. Around the same time she also stopped accepting new members. Luckily I had my new account so I could still enjoy the members-only posts.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed reading Groklaw every day, but PJ did not accept criticism and would quite often remove posts that criticized her. I saw it happen many times as I would read articles and comments only to refresh and see most of those criticizing comments to suddenly disappear. Yes, she left the comments that were only slight criticism, but most of the ones that went against her ideals were removed. Of course she would leave a few that were obvious trolls and just call them out on it, but in my case, I also posted links to articles that proved my point of creating surveys and analyzing the results to get the results you want for publishing, and for that I was deleted from Groklaw.
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Guy Fawkes
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Authored by Guy Fawkes on Sept 16, 2013 17:20:12 GMT
PJ never called Groklaw a community. She repeatedly referred to it as "her place, her rules", and she welcomed a large group of people to come and visit. The people visiting were the Groklaw community, but the site itself, and the rights to do with it as she pleased, was always very clearly and rightfully hers. While I might not necessarily agree that it was the best choice to keep it that way (I haven't considered the alternatives, and I do not have enough information to form an opinion), it was her choice to make, and I respect that. That isnt the truth. I know of a lot of places on Groklaw that PJ called Groklaw a community. I'm sure if I list them, the comments will disappear.
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Authored by wayneborean on Sept 16, 2013 20:19:29 GMT
OK, we've all made our points. As someone whose account got blocked by PJ, I think she was at times a bit too heavy handed. However Groklaw was her site. She had final control, and that's how it should be. There's times that is is really difficult to tell whether you are dealing with a troll, or just someone who disagrees strongly with you. I've had enough trouble with trolls, I'm fact one (after I deleted every message he ever posted) suggested that I should die of cancer. Unfortunately for him, I'm still here. I did have to tighten control of comments though, which I absolutely hated doing. Running a site that allows comments is a no win scenario. You can never keep everybody happy. Wayne madhatter.ca
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